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Needlesandpins86 04/22/2012 11:13:00 PM
Sorry, meant poor Swart.
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Needlesandpins86 04/22/2012 11:12:00 PM
As a survivor of domestic abuse I find l liysas story of abuse to be insulting. Never read rules book, but did follow the evidence and the trial. Liysas story reminds me of Casey Anthony. Poor Swarthy, clearly a lonely man who doesn't see he's being manipulated by a professional. And, what of all the ex-husband stories who painted liysas as incapable of telling the truth.? Theyre liars too?
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Perrywilson59 03/29/2012 6:53:00 PM
I happen to know Ms. Rule personally and know of no one with as much integrity as Ms. Rule. She is through in her research and is unbais in her writings. I have found her to be refreshing in her goal to write books of this nature honestly to all parties concerned. Thank You Ann
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amy 01/26/2012 3:59:00 AM
Rick dear.. you are being used for your writing platform, just as Chris was used for airline tickets. When I realized you wrote for a paper chills ran down my spine.
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Noexit88 01/24/2012 12:27:00 AM
PJbac... Obviously you understand little about the dynamics of abuse...Please use common sense. Please see my post at lefora.com and then argue the dynamics and facts of the case. Otherwise your comments are of minimal value as you know very little about the case or of the psychological dynamics at play. Of course you may know a bit about Ann Rule's ex cop psychology and "sloppy story telling" though we all owe ourselves more than to invest in that garbage. remember there is NOEXIT from truth..,..
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Pjbac2001 01/22/2012 9:17:00 PM
If this was such a big deal, then why was it not on the national news, in papers outside of the northwest and in magizines like Time, Newsweek, and such? Maybe because Ann Rule writes about men and women who are not only killers but such twisted people that the public wants to know why they do the things they do. As to Dr. DeWit, if you were a counselor, then it was your duty to report to the police about the abuse your sister was receiving. If you didn't, then why are you so angry? Maybe because of the guilt you feel. Your sister is a killer, and from the article I read(I did not read the book, just the article), she looks like she planned this far in advance. I left my husband because of the verbal abuse and if he had hit me once, he would have been in jail with a divorce. You sister remained and even took their 3 yr old child, who could not be a witness, to a camping trip leave the older child behind. Sorry, to me that looks like planning. She plead because she would have been given more time. Grow up and face the facts your sister did it. Ann Rule may have gotten some things wrong, but she got the major facts right.
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Cindy 12/08/2011 5:46:00 AM
Swart doesn't want people to realize what the rest of us realize. He's married to a cold-blooded killer. Liysa premediated the murder of her previous husband. The evidence is there in the computer that was supposedly "stolen"...another lie from Liysa Northon. He doesn't want people to realize what a fool he is. Just sayin'
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Robert Perrine 11/14/2011 8:51:00 AM
Here are some facts:
John Leslie Deal
DOB 05/24/1952
9/1/1994 - Rape 1 (Class A felony)
4/1/1995 - Rape 1 (Class A felony)
4/1/1995 - Sodomy 1 (Class A felony)
4/1/1995 - Sex Pen W/Foreign Ob-1 ( Class A felony)
Poss Stoln Property 1 - WA DOC
Burglary 1 - WA DOC
Why should we believe anything you say?
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Cindy 11/07/2011 2:03:00 PM
See the story in yesterday's Oregonian written by Richard Cockle about Liysa Northon. Doesn't paint her as the "innocent", battered woman she and now husband Rick Swart claim her to be. Also, there are more comments from readers. This woman is a killer!
http://mobile.oregonlive.com/advorg/pm_29233/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=N4kpJUqH
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Doctor2932 11/06/2011 8:09:00 AM
John,
I guess you remember calling me one time and me saying I would Check you out, you are a punk, and a convicted sex offender trying to squeeze or basically blackmail money out of Rick, my best advice to you is to tell the truth for a change, you scumbag, and remember your attorney who got you off, Dick Monahan, has now passed away but his daughter and law firm still still have all of his files.
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Guest 11/06/2011 3:18:00 AM
No inside knowledge? Swart is married to Liysa. Just saying.
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guest 11/02/2011 11:07:00 PM
In Swart's article he claims a lack of specific information from Ann Rule and he mentions the other guy. I am the other guy and Ann Rules story and information is in fact accurate. I have substantial written proof that will back Ms. Rule's book. I find it difficult to understand people that have no inside knowledge make the comments they do toward either side. Get the facts then comment.
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Robert Perrine 10/17/2011 6:40:00 AM
I can't see that Ann Rule has yet refuted any of the specific information in Swart's article; must all be true.
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10/06/2011 7:12:00 AM
No mention by Swart of the missing computers that were falsely reported stolen. One of them, a laptop, showed up in the possession of one of Liysa Northon's friends. Is there an explanation?
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Sarah 09/27/2011 7:07:00 AM
Saw on Ann Rule's website today Liysa married Swart in prison last week. Wonder if she wore her prison blues? Wonder how long her FOURTH marriage will last. Hopefully, it doesn't end for Swart the way it did for Chris!!
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Tai_mac 09/15/2011 10:09:00 PM
Inserting some words and deleting others in what is presented as a direct quote is a perfect example of misrepresentation:
" Yet in double-checking Swart's story, we were able to at least confirm the accuracy of some of the facts supporting his main argument.
In the following pages, you'll see a ruling from a judge, findings from a custody specialist and multiple mental-health professionals, and interviews with Liysa's own son that suggest she was abused.
Liysa's aunt, mother, and brother also continue to insist that Rule didn't attempt to interview them. Her father, Wayland DeWitt, the former president of Walla Walla Community College, even says he went out of his way to make himself available to the author but never had his calls or e-mails returned. (Our attempts to reach Rule to give her a chance to respond to these and other statements have thus far been unsuccessful.)"
Very different from the version posted on Liysa's website. Which, by the way, looks like a box containing some text that they /claim/ is a scan of (just one paragraph) from the SW. That doesn't make it real.
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danski284 09/12/2011 6:38:00 AM
Looks OK to me. I don't see that they's misrepresented anything. What's your point Tai-Mac.
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Cindy 08/31/2011 12:54:00 PM
It's just amazing how Rick Swart and Liysa Northon think their story in Seattle Weekly and on her website erases the fact that she murdered her husband and not in self defense. It couldn't be self defense if the guy was comatose and zipped up in a sleeping bag. The computer with the emails to her dad flat out show elements of premeditation on Liysa's part. No matter how they spin it, some of us are smart enough to see the story Swart wrote for what it is. Liysa still takes no responsibility for her act of clear cut premeditated murder. Too bad Swart can't see how he's being manipulated now. I hope he wakes up before he's her next victim!
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Tai_mac 08/31/2011 5:30:00 AM
Rick Swart and Liysa Northon are now deliberately misrepresenting the Seattle Weekly's findings on the 'accuracy' of his facts by misquoting the paper. Because those pesky words like "some" can be deleted, and it's no problem to insert words in what's supposed to be a direct quote, right?
http://liysanorthon.com/documentation.html
No wonder they don't allow comments on her blog. Too easy to call bulls**t.
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Cfrilick 08/26/2011 2:03:00 PM
Ironic that your big story about how Ann Rule is unethical is preceded by a disclose of how you violated journalism ethics by failing to disclose you intend to become the 4th husband of the murderer you write about! Good job!
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danski284 08/21/2011 1:23:00 AM
Thought I'd check in and see if Ms. Rule has decided to address any of the specific allegations that Swart raised about her lying in her book. Guess not. Apparently Swart's allegations stand as true.
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Fastcar 08/21/2011 12:52:00 AM
Liysa might have killed for the money as Chris had a substantial 401K. You can't put Liysa and cops killing in the same category!!
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Nomorelies 08/20/2011 6:32:00 AM
Noexit88...speaking of MMM website that you blog on, here is an account of that night, found on the MMM website:
2000-October 9- Liysa Northon left her 8 year old son at a friend's home in Washington state and with their 3 year old son accompanied Chris Northon on a camping trip to a remote campground. (While reportedly deathly afraid of him.)
After the shooting Northon drove herself and her son 4 hours across state lines to the friend's home in Washington where she telephones Oregon police to tip them off to find Chris' body. Liysa informed the authorities "that her husband had become drunk & violent and threatened their young son and tried to drown her." Liysa Northon told police "I blindly fired a shot at Chris to scare him" in the dark as she ran to the vehicle.
(At a man in a drug induced coma, handcuffed, zipped to his chin in a mummy sleeping bag!)
Liysa claimed Chris was drunken, yet there was only a minuscule amount of alcohol in his urine. Most people have to urinate after drinking. Chris's bladder was full at autopsy. "The fact that any alcohol he had imbibed would have taken hours to metabolize from his blood ot his urine suggested that he had not been able to empty his bladder, probably because he had lain unconscious that long.
Liysa had written a screenplay that police say was a virtual master plan for the way Chris Northon was murdered.
The Police investigation disputed Northon's claims and she was charged with murder.
2001- July - Liysa Northon at first pled Not Guilty at trial but when her computer (she'd reported stolen) and emails from it were brought into evidence she pled an Alford Plea. The emails showed a level of premeditation. Northon, age 39, was duly convicted and sentenced to first degree manslaughter and 12 1/2 years and transported to prison.
Email to her father: Drowning is the best in terms of detection- but I want a gun for back up, and then will have to get a sure fire disposal method. Both of us will have to throw the computers away because I just read they can trace email on hard drives.. but I would replace yours with a new one..."
"I would consider any relevant help form (a relative) more than adequate compensation for Papako's (name changed) check. Silencer. Assistance. Anything. But it's not required. Just in case you thought I'd changed my mind, I thought I'd reassure you that I haven't."
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Nomorelies 08/20/2011 6:27:00 AM
The fact...she MURDERED her husband while he was zipped up in a sleeping bag to his chin, comatose. He wasn't running after her. She wrote about it BEFORE she committed the crime in emails to her father. She may have been a victim of domestic abuse, but on that night she planned snuffing him out, depriving her children of their father...and he was not in anyway running after her. She is a sociopathic killer. End of story.
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Noexit88 08/19/2011 3:06:00 AM
Well, first she did not plan the trip as has been shown. Second are you telling me an alcoholic lie Chris had nothing to drink? Toxicology reports are wrong all the time for all kinds of reasons AND there were traces of alcohol....Thirdly sociopathy now has been even backed off of by many of Rule's supporters. See my many post on MMM for further clarification and education. USE common sense he had known she carried a gun for a long time as noted. She likely talked about the abuse and of killing him for years Yes, she had fantasies of killing especially after attacked. MOST abused people do, its almost abnormal if they do not. How do you kill someone bigger? with a gun. These are love/hate dynamics that yes are disturbed. Many abused women do talk about killing their drunken,pill taking husbands. Then they should serve some time 1-2..up to 5 years. But ltes stick to good common sense considering ALL of the dynamics.
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Noexit88 08/19/2011 2:55:00 AM
Killing is not necessarily murder. Can you see nuances? Military and police often kill when under duress. The documents prove rule is a purposeful liar for money, profit and arrogance. If Liysa exaggerated or lied it was defensive. It is not unusual for abused people to do this as they think no one understands the magnitude of their situation. Of course how many out there really seek the truth?? from an author who has shown she does not even understand basic psychology/psychiatry.
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Nomorelies 08/19/2011 2:51:00 AM
So the toxicology report Noexit88, explain that. No alcohol in his blood. It's a crock of crap that she thought Chris was running after her. There's something posted on the website that she asked her friend (who testified to the fact) that she asked for drugs, SHE planned the camping trip, she took guns and a stun gun, up the Lostine where they would be isolated. You cannot change other's opinions on the sociopathic killer. She is a killer...cold blooded. Ann Rule did a FINE job of laying out the facts of the KILLING. Northon took the plea deal because she knew if the contents of her computer/ email were revealed to a jury she'd be behind bars "4 - EVA".
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Noexit88 08/19/2011 2:48:00 AM
Nomore lies, Why dont you reply and debate facts? Until then you are merely repeating innaccurate information. At least admit Rule has lied repeatedly, otherwise you continue to refute your own moniker.
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Noexit88 08/19/2011 2:42:00 AM
I thought you said "nomorelies" yet now you have broken the Rule of your moniker...unless in your delusional state you think you are right?!
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Nomorelies 08/19/2011 12:52:00 AM
Noexit88...you are delusional as Lisya and the rest in her "camp".
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Noexit88 08/18/2011 6:05:00 PM
Let me remind people of something....Many people kill under duress. Police and the military for example. I think this is analogous in this case. Liysa was beaten and scared. She thought she heard him getting up and shot. Now she is responsible and maybe could have got 1-3 years. Now most reasonable people would surmise he knew she had a gun. She probably came close to shooting before. This is not shocking in ongoing abuse cases. She had talked about this abuse for years! And had previously mentioned a gun as Rule reported . She even went to a therapist for quite some time without being mandated. This would be very unusual for a sociopath. It is unlikely she drugged Chris. He already had an RX. and was a heavy drinker. Come on people lets use common sense. MS. Rule expressed puzzelment the judge was sympathetic which is rarely the case. Right now I am sure MS. Rule-who I do not believe to be a sociopath- is racked by guilt and regret. She is probably finished as her lies have been exposed. They are many as has been detailed. It is time she come forward and explain as best she can how it all went so wrong.
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Noexit88 08/18/2011 5:28:00 PM
Well, as I have documented in my blogs on "Murder, mystery and mayhem" Ann Rule ironically does not even understand basic psychology. She says for example:" Someone often has many personality disorders such as antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, histrionic and none are treatable". This is innaccurate. A person can have traits but not more than one personality disorder. This is a greivous error! Now antisocial disorder is not usually amenable though she lumps them all together. DBT treatment for borderline is actually quite effective for example. She also as I have extensively detailed knows little of what goes into a DSM diagnosis. Liysa had a "mixed personality disorder" in one evaluation. No traits of antisocial were noted and she was said to have a high degree of empathy. As I have detailed she not even close to being a sociopath. In Rulke's latest book she tries again to use improper psychlogy to make Ron Reynolds look like a sociopath. In that book she refuses on three occasions to call Zoloft an antidepressant and glosses over it use when talking about a possible suicide. She is bised and in over her head. This is obvious. It is time for other "True Crime writers" to call her out. Feel free to join the detailed discussion on "Murder, Mystery and Mayhem". I mean even Journalist writing about science are expected to have a working knowledge...Other True Crime writers such as M.William Phelps do..Rule fails miserbly at what she should know most about. This is shocking and unacceptable. Many people have paid a price for this.
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She Is a Muderer! 08/17/2011 4:27:00 AM
Doc,
The guy who is a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier didn't have a chance while zipped up to the chin in a sleeping bag, filled with sleeping pills. If he'd been 10 feet taller and five hundred pounds heavier, it wouldn't have made a difference. Your sister is a cold blooded killer...whether I reveal who I am or not. What has been revealed in Rule's book is the truth. You and your family want to take justify killing a human being who had no way to defend himself. Shame on you. Shame on Lisa and shame on Rick Swart for his hit piece on an author who does months and months of research. There's no law that says Rule must interview a sociopath and murderer.
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Doctor2932 08/15/2011 7:39:00 AM
If FACTUAL information "smears" Ann Rule, then she Either needs to herself try writing factual information, or publish her fictional writing under the FICTION table that it is!
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Doctor2932 08/15/2011 7:17:00 AM
By the way RANDOM, I did not make that claim, I was not at the Maxwell campground on the Lostine river the night Chris was shot, so address where you get your facts for us all!!
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Doctor2932 08/13/2011 7:19:00 AM
Actually what I'm angry about is the bold face lies Ann Rule wrote wrote about ALL of my family member's, she chose not to speak to any of us, yet wrote about us extensively and UNFACTUALLY. It was Ms. Rule who chose not to include FACTS because they did not fit her "truth." Ann Rule spoke to only those individuals who would speak negatively about my family and to hell with the facts. The same nefarious approach was used in the Ron Reynolds case, and she calls herself a "true" crime writer and talks about her meticulous research, it is a farce, and she is a sham. And as far as Liysa causing her own injuries, I have NEVER seen a case where a woman routinely causes self injury and even more telling is the fact that after intense investigation no investigating law enforcement personnel even suggested Liysa had inflicted her own injuries, which would also require extreme contorsionism.
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Nomorelies 08/12/2011 8:51:00 PM
Yeah, well, it's been posted on other sites and maybe I even read it in "Heart Full of Lies", that maybe she gave herself the battered and bruised face. It's quite possible when I read the posting of what was in Birmingham's documentation. Listen, you're her brother, family...family always sticks together. You're not going to come out against your sister, right, wrong or indifferent. Let people have their opinions after absorbing all that they've read. You come off as angry as your sister because people won't swallow what doesn't seem to fit "truth".
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Doctor2932 08/12/2011 4:14:00 PM
Well Nomorelies, Chris Northon literally had blood on his hands on numerous occasions as well, I wish events would have transpired differently, but I have also seen the police photographs of Liysa's battered and bruised face compliments of Chris Northon, which remained for quite some time after Liysa was taken into custody, although, again Ann Rule left this factual information out of her book because it didn't fit into her "storyline!"
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Doctor2932 08/12/2011 8:30:00 AM
Ms. Rule didn't get MOST of her information right, and Yes let's not forget the REAL story, a man who was a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier beat his wife on numerous occasions and in full view of the young children, a fact Ann Rule chose to overlook and disregard. And a coward like you, who spews his nasty remarks under cover of aninimity calls a courageous, intelligent man like Rick Swart an idiot, you are a typical "ARF," do you also let Ms. Rule decide which shirt you wear each morning?
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danski284 08/11/2011 5:48:00 AM
Ms. Rule not only got the information about the college degree wrong, she used it to paint Liysa as a liar. She also said Liysa wasn't battered when she had court documents that proved otherwise. She also failed to interview Liysa or members of her family, while cozying up to Chris Northon's parents. She also contacted a former boyfriend in a failed attempt to get incriminating information on Liysa (out of spite). Does this sound like the actions of a distinguished "true" crime author? Not hardly.
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Nomorelies 08/10/2011 6:16:00 AM
Doc,
I get that you're upset about what Ann Rule didn't get right...but your sister is a murderer. She took someone's life. You say your lives were ruined. What about the Chris Northon's life, the lives of his family and children who must miss him terribly. Your sister made her choice that night in Lostine (and quite possibly, from what I've read, long before that camping trip) and now she's paying for it in prison. She will never get to forget what she did because too many people know of her misdeed and she will be reminded of it forever. She has blood on her hands.
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She is a murderer! 08/10/2011 6:10:00 AM
Wow! that information is eye-opening. So, maybe Ms. Rule didn't get the information about Lisa's college degree, but she sure did get what's important right. Lisa is a cold blooded killer and a liar...exactly what she and Swart accuse Rule of. Let's not forget the real story of why Lisa is behind bars. She's a murderer, plain and simple. Swart is an idiot!
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Guest 08/09/2011 10:17:00 AM
As a Psychologist did you advise your sister the best way to deal with abuse was to take her 3-year old to a secluded camp ground with her "abuser" drug him up and shoot him in the head while he is passed out cold then claim the gun went off randomly? She murdered her child's father while he slept then claims "self defense?" All the while your sister states that the 1 thing that hurts the children would be the claim that she had not been abused by Chris. I would think the 1 thing that would hurt her child would be his mom murdering his dad in his sleep.
Your sister had no problem leaving 2 previous husbands but couldn't leave Chris? The other thing is that no judge has ever ruled in your sisters favor. She says she spent every cent on her attorney but I am curiuos how much money she got from the sale of her home in Hawaii, the home in Oregon, life insurance and any other money related to Chris because it seems like a lot more than $300,000. In your sisters court documents she repeatedly requests court leniency because she is only a "Surf Photographer" but her finance states that she is a Paralegal. A little confusing. And lastly if Rick was so adament about seeking the truth then why didn't he just disclose his relationship with your sister and use real facts rather than describing some childish Halloween prank where his lover dresses up as Ann Rule with lipstick and a 'Ted for-eva' immature scrawl that left the inmates howling with laughter! Tough audience there. And very, very cheap shot unrelated to facts- maybe Ann Rule should dress as Liysa for Halloween in prison stripes and scraw 'I murdered Chris in cold blood' on her hand.
Why is your sister the victim of everyone and every circumstance and not Chris- he paid with his life.
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Random 08/09/2011 9:14:00 AM
So now explain why Chris was shot in his sleeping bag in his sleep with enough sleeping pills to rendure him nearly comotose according to the toxologist. Or did he also conspire against your sister? Also did it ever occur to you that your sister ruined the lices of Chris' family? His friends and family members pain a different picture- one of a sleeping man shot in the head while he slept without any other alcohol or drugs in his system.....
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Doctor2932 08/09/2011 5:25:00 AM
I am a chiropractor physician specializing in sports injuries, incidentally, at the time of this incident and until I left Washington state, I was a licensed Washington State registered counselor, so unlike Ann Rule, I do have the education and psychology background to speculate on DSM IV diagnosis criteria.
I have posted my name and correct phone number, so any document you would like me to send to you, I will be more than happy to accommodate you. There are thousands of pages of documents in this case, I cannot feasibly post every single document.
There is no question whether or not Liysa shot Chris, she did and he is dead, outside of that, I will send you any document you request. If you didn't get my number to request specific documents, it is (205)442-9190
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Doctor2932 08/09/2011 5:06:00 AM
Nomorelies,
First of all Ann Rule DID NOT interview friends and family on both sides, she chose NOT to speak to Liysa or any of her family member's , in fact she refused to do so. Although she lied to her fans and reader's by thanking such persons in her afterward comments, a prime example of this is where she thanks my aunt Bobbie Chitwood, Ann Rule has never seen or spoken to Bobbie Chitwood. Ann Rule basically accuses me of being an accessory to murder, although lead detectives from the Oregon state police, Mike Wilson and Jim Van Atta find this to be both laughable as well as ludicrous. Ann Rule publishes in her book statements from a court sealed affidavit from Par Birmingham, the court sealed it because of the false statements by Pat Birmingham that the document contained. Ann Rule stated in a motorized statement, that she had obtained this sealed document from Pat Birmingham, yet when the Oregon State Bar Association started an investigation on Pat Birmingham, Ann Rule suddenly recanted her notorized statement, and asserted that she was just mistaken and had actually received the document anonymously from someone in Portland, Oregon. Now if Ann Rule is as proficient in investigation and law as you claim, she did not "accidentally" sign a notorized statement claiming this sealed document was given to her by attorney Pat Birmingham. Thus, we are left with the fact that Either Ann Rule purposely attempted to tarnished the reputation and career of an innocent high profile attorney (as if there is such a creature) or Ann Rule lied in her incantation statement in order to save attorney Pat Birmingham's ass! As I have stated in an earlier post, I met with Pat Birmingham and his investigator's in late December at the Red Lion hotel in Pendleton, Oregon, at Mr. Birmingham's request, and a full 7 months before Liysa's trial. At this meeting I told Pat Birmingham that I had physical control of one of the computer's in question, and had a good idea where the other one was, Mr. Birmingham' comment was, and I quote, "fuck, I'm going to jail," so, when the desktop computer showed up at Liysa's trial 7 months later, he was in serious trouble, not with his case, and not just with extremely serious ethics violations, but with seriously violating Oregon Law. Pat Birmingham did anything he could to end Liysa's trial at this point, he had his investigator Bash call me and tell me to leave town, which I did not do (I was busy with my children and patients) and bullied Liysa into accepting the plea deal. Mr. Birmingham threw Liysa under the bus and has continued to berate and discredit her to avoid facing the consequences of his actions involving the 7 month prior knowledge of the existence of both computers in question. And just to keep the facts straight, Liysa was NOT the person who reported the computers missing to the police or insurance company. And I have also stated, I am more than willing to take a polygraph on every statement I have made regarding this matter, if Ann Rule and or Pat Birmingham is willing to take a polygraph with me to refute ANY statement I have made, than let's get them scheduled as soon as possible!!!
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truthseeker 08/08/2011 2:25:00 PM
The Supreme Court sealed Birmingham’s affidavit because it contained materially false statements. What he wrote was not true. The ruling which relied upon Birmingham’s affidavit was also seased because ti was not true. Whoever made this post violated a Supreme Court directive because it was not true and defamed Liysa. What the document does show is Birmingham’s level of deception. The Seattle Weekly is also in violation of the Supreme Court directive.
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Nomorelies 08/08/2011 1:27:00 AM
The following was recently posted by "jowls" on the website Murder Mystery and Mayhem - Liysa Northon...and interesting read for sure:
Seattle Weekly doesn't have a huge news organisation for research purposes. It's a locally distributed free newspaper with limited resources and tight budget constraint and as such they're simply not capable of spending thousands of $$$ dispatching Chris Hansen or Erin Moriarty to spend months analyzing the case thoroughly. The "verification" was most likely a serious conversation with Rick Swart followed by some calls and a few internet searches.
So what should Ann Rule do now? Well, she already did something, actually. She called the Seattle Weekly and informed them that she was aware of Rick Swart's real motivation for writing the article but refused to specify. This in turn immediately prompted the editor to call mr. Swart which again ultimately resulted in the disclosure of his personal involvement with Liysa Northon. In other words, Ann Rule not only gave an example of how well informed she is, but also applied her knowledge in a very subtle and noble manner giving the paper and mr. Swart a chance to take actions themselves. Thus Ann Rule came out of this affair with her integrity intact while Rick Swart has his in tatters and shreds.
Why am I so focused on mr. Swart's conduct instead of the facts he brings to the table, you may ask. Simple Noext88 - by sacrificing his integrity he basically nullified everything else in the article. From now on he is no longer to be considered a journalist or neutral observer but part of Liysa's defense team,- eg. we must assume that he is working to dig out everything that makes her look good and bury everything that makes her look bad. The article has completely lost it's balance and despite containing several good points in Liysa's defense we must expect it to be a one-sided list of plusses where all counterpoints have been ignored. It's like reading a description of the North Korean society written by Kim Il-Sung...
So far the best neutral processing of the case that we have access to is the motion from the Oregon Court which I believe Patsy has already quoted from previously. It's a lengthy document, but the section used to determine Liysa Northon's reliability is as follows...
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Liysa Northon’s attorney, Pat Birmingham, performed an extensive investigation of the facts and thoroughly researched the “Battered Woman Syndrome”defense. See Birmingham Aff. at 5-7. Mr. Birmingham moved for an order allowing Liysa Northon to present expert testimony to assist the fact finder in understanding thesignificance of evidence establishing a pattern, practice or history of abuse of LiysaNorthon. Id. at 12. The motion was denied pursuant to State v. Ogden, 168 Or App 249,6 P3d 1110 (2000), rev den 331 Or 692 (2001). Id. Under Ogden, in order to argue this defense, Liysa Northon would have been required to present evidence that she had been diagnosed as suffering from Battered Woman Syndrome. Birmingham discovered, however, that the evidence that Liysa Northon suffered from Battered Woman Syndromewas weak. Northon did not fit the profile of a “battered woman” from the outset; she did not attempt to hide the alleged abuse but openly made many claims about it. Moreover, the defense would have opened the door to admission of prejudicial evidence relating to Liysa Northon’s character for truthfulness. Id.
The Birmingham affidavit is replete with instances in which Liysa Northon lied to him, to investigators, and to many others. For just a few representative examples, she said that she had not taken out any life insurance on her husband; that was untrue. Id. at 14. She lied about being abused by her mother, and suffering, among other things, twenty-six broken bones. Id. at 16-17. She lied in denying that she stopped at Jon DeWitt’s home immediately after killing her husband. Id.at 21. She lied about possessing handcuffs. Id. She lied about having a stun gun in her vehicle. Id. She lied about numerous thefts and burglaries and filed false insurance claims. Id. at 23. She smuggled a message out of jail seeking to destroy a computer that would provide damning evidence that she had in fact been planning to kill her husband. Id. at 24-28. (She even asked counsel to help her destroy a computer because material on it would incriminate her and her father. Id. at 24.) As a result, and along with other considerations, Birmingham and his defense team decided to present self-defense and defense of other as Northon’s defenses, rather than a Battered Woman Syndrome defense.Id. At 12-13, 18.
Against her attorney’s advice, Liysa Northon discussed her case and defense with many people, including guards, family members, friends, nurses, counselors, and other inmates. Id. at 8. Liysa Northon’s case and her allegations of abuse and self-defense drew much public attention. Court TV selected her trial to broadcast nationwide. See Rule Decl. ¶¶ 9, 48 and Ex. 38 thereto. The trial began on July 16, 2001. See Birmingham Aff. at 10, 28.During the week before trial, Liysa Northon’s computer, which she had reported as stolen, was discovered and provided to the FBI. As the trial began, the FBI obtained from the computer’s hard drive e-mails between Liysa Northon and her father,Wayland Dewitt. These e-mails demonstrated that Liysa Northon planned to kill her husband. Id. at 18. More over, Joan Monteillet admitted that Liysa Northon, only days before the killing, had asked her for poison and whether she knew of any swift-running rivers. She had also asked for Valium, sleeping pills or other “hard drugs.” Id. at 27. Three days into the trial, Liysa Northon pleaded guilty to intentionally causing the death of her husband while under the influence of extreme emotional disturbance. She wasthereafter sentenced to serve twelve years in prison for the crime. See Rule Decl. at ¶ 13and Ex. 3 thereto
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I think that we can safely assume that none of the judges in the state of Oregon are prejudiced neither for nor against Liysa. Yet, what they came up with doesn't draw a very flattering picture of her truthfulness. Now lets see what they managed to dig up about Ann Rule...
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The author defendant in this case, Ann Rule, is an experienced and well-known investigative author. Over the past 30 years, she has published over 25 books and 1400 articles, nearly all concerning criminal cases. Twenty-four of her books have beenNew York Times bestsellers, and she has won numerous literary awards for her works. Ms. Rule’s career as a true crime writer was preceded by work in law enforcement andthe criminal justice system.
She is a former Seattle policewoman and caseworker for theWashington State Department of Public Assistance. Ms. Rule currently teaches seminarsto law enforcement groups and is a certified instructor on criminology subjects such as Sadistic Sociopaths, Women Who Kill, and High Profile Offenders. She was on the U.S.Justice Department Task Force that set up VI-CAP, the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program now in place at FBI Headquarters in Quantico, Virginia, and she has testified twice before Senate Judiciary Subcommittees on victims’ rights. See Rule Decl. ¶¶ 2-4.
As demonstrated herein, Ms. Rule meticulously researches and investigates the subjects of her writing. Heart Full of Lies (the “Book”) is a story of the people and events surrounding the confessed killing of Christopher Northon by his wife, Liysa Northon. Ms. Rule performed an independent investigation into the facts of the case, which ultimately culminated in the published Book that contains the statements now challenged by plaintiffs. See Rule Decl. ¶ 5.Ms. Rule’s investigation drew on many sources, both public and private. She interviewed those who were involved in the official investigation and trial, including law enforcement investigators and officials (local, state, and national), medicalexaminers, attorneys and court personnel. She interviewed numerous private citizens aswell, including relatives and friends of both the victim and plaintiff. Rule Decl. ¶¶ 5, 10. In addition, Ms. Rule researched public records, poring over investigative reports andforensic evidence. She examined the court proceedings and trial testimony, as well as media coverage of those events. Rule Decl. ¶¶ 5, 9, 48-49. She tested the competing versions of events advanced by the prosecution and the defense by visiting the crime scene and other locales throughout the Pacific Northwest and Hawaii. Rule Decl. ¶ 5.
Although plaintiff Liysa Northon declined to speak to Ms. Rule, plaintiff Northon’s voice was heard nonetheless, through plaintiff’s correspondence, her admissions to law enforcement personnel, and her plea of guilty. In toto, Ms. Rule spent 800 hours, over approximately six months,exhaustively investigating the events surrounding this crime before she began writing theBook. Rule Decl. ¶ 6. The Book identifies its sources. It also sets forth all claims madeby everyone involved. The Book describes Liysa Northon’s claims of abuse and self-defense, the witness statement of Liysa Northon’s son Aukai King describing Chris Northon’s alleged abuse of Liysa Northon (Book, p. 200), the account of Liysa Northon’s friends of her confessions that her husband was beating her and their witnessing bruises on her body, and statements that Christopher Northon and other pilots smoked marijuana(Book, pp. 227, 228-229, 244, 267, 270-271). After disclosing the facts, Ms. Rule also includes her own interpretations as to what she believes is the truth that can be gleaned from the contradicting stories from Liysa Northon and others who knew the couple.
Ms. Rule commonly includes an Afterword in her true crime books,providing a summary of her own analysis of the facts. The Afterword in the Book istypical. Ms. Rule describes her own investigation and uses language demonstrating that she is providing her own opinion and interpretation of the facts, as discussed further herein. Ms. Rule describes the picture that emerged to her after fitting all of the pieces together. In fact, she describes how, during her investigation, she had to face her own strong bias in favor of a woman claiming to be the victim of domestic violence. In her words in the Book, “I have long been a strong advocate and contributor to domestic violence support groups. So I had to struggle with my own preconceptions and prejudices as I began my research. In the end, I found that I could not explain the gaping inconsistencies in [plaintiff’s] recounting of her marriage and the way her husband died.”
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So can we agree that Ann Rule comes out looking quite a lot better than Liysa Northon in this summation by an independent court? If you were in a situation where you didn't have six month and thousands of $$$ to travel around and do your own research, which of the two individuals just described would you trust the most?
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danski284 08/08/2011 12:21:00 AM
It looks to me like Ann Rule's propaganda machine is in full swing. Regardless of who wrote the story, for an author of her stature to be printing false statements to paint the subjects of her books in an unfavorable light it a terrible abuse of power and a breach of public trust. She needs to come clean, and soon.
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Oredit22 08/08/2011 12:11:00 AM
I've been a colleague of Swart's for almost 20 years and can assure you he has a solid record of accomplishment in the industry. In addition to his family publishing business he worked as an editor and publisher for four or five other well-respected publishing companies and he has won more than 50 awards from several state press associations and professional associations. His piece on Rule is a national story because he exposed a best-selling author for fabricating material in her books and also for her failure to get both sides of her alleged "true" crime story. It's apparent Rule's damage-control machine is working overtime by salting this and other message boards with propaganda designed to take the focus off of her.
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Icanseeclearly 08/07/2011 10:10:00 PM
It's apparent that Swart is just as manipulative as Liysa Northon. He always did like to sensationalize a story. This is how he can get notoriety after being a has been news guy. He doesn't write for newspapers anymore other than a few press releases for Oregon Fish & Wildlife. He's getting some fame out of this and basking in it for sure.
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Guest 08/07/2011 9:12:00 PM
Accident?!! The man was murdered by his wife. How can you call that an accident? Whether she was abused or not she didn't have to pull the trigger on a naked man in a sleeping bag.
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Davidhayslip 08/07/2011 4:49:00 PM
it is sadly funny how men can be swooned to their demise. this lady is a repetitive user so wake up bud. oh yeah, if she wants to go camping for your honeymoon, you deserve the outcome.
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Random 08/07/2011 10:19:00 AM
And by the way DOCTOR you claim that Liysa shot her husband when the gun went off while she was running for her life when in fact she shot a nearly comotose man while he was asleep - address that for us all!!
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Random 08/07/2011 10:16:00 AM
Isn't it ironic how it is NEVER the fault of the Sociopath? The police are against them, the DA rail roads them, thee Attorney takes all their money and conspires against them......and the brother supposedly has information to prove his sister is a victim? PRINT IT THEN! If I had proof one of my siblings was innocent or a victim I wouldn't be running my mouth arguing with people on the internet - rather I would show the facts.
What kind of DOCTOR are you anyway?
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08/07/2011 7:02:00 AM
Fuck you, Dan. You're nothing but a media whore.
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08/06/2011 4:23:00 PM
Not only is he another one of Ms. sociopath Northon's infinite fiances, his piece on ann rule is pure defamation and he does little if anything to prove anything. Ann Rule doesn't write anything sans proof.
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Gonepackin 08/06/2011 5:36:00 AM
Long history of telling the truth ...my ass!
During his tenure in Wallowa county Rick Swart wrote what he wanted to write, the facts be damned. Calling oneself a writer does not automatically qualify one as a journalist and Rick was NO journalist.
He was family and that got him the job.
I understand he went to rehab after he left and if he is still sober, hooray for him.
Regardless, he never was a journalist!
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Washgirl101 08/04/2011 4:10:00 AM
I grew up only a few miles from where the accident took place. While I am not a fan of swarts. I have always thought your sister was not fairly tried.
Praying for your family.
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billyboy 08/03/2011 4:30:00 PM
Again, an outlandish statement without and no offer of proof against what Swart said.
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billyboy 08/03/2011 4:14:00 PM
Some were shown in this article. You Ann Rule stooges just make dumb comments because Ann Rule will not respond and you really have nothing to back you up. Does it seem strange to you that she does not bring up her documents to refute what Mr. Swart wrote? She wrote a damn book, surely she has one. Why would she write a book about Ms. Northon and not interview her or her family. I understand that she is fast friends with some of the Northon family. C'mom, write something that proves Swart wrong!
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Guest 08/03/2011 12:47:00 AM
The editor's note should not have a "sic" before "fiance'." When referring to a prospective groom, the word does indeed have one "e." at the end. It's only when referring to a prospective bride that it has two. So whether this lady is a psycho or a victim, at least she know more about spelling than the Seattle Weekly editor. Which is kind of sad.
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truthseeker 08/02/2011 4:39:00 PM
It appears Rule is not going to respond to specfic false statements that Swart pointed out. Wonder what she's hiding. I understand the true crime community is starting to raise questions about the truthfulness of her Ron Reynolds book. This may just be the tip of the iceberg.
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Doctor2932 08/02/2011 6:26:00 AM
Well Jim, there has never been a question of whether Liysa shot Chris or not, she did that is a fact. What is in question is the events leading up to the shooting, and the slanderous unfactual statements made by Ann Rule, about 4 generations of innocent family members, just to sell her book.
You can say what you want about Rick Swart, his facts were true, and he has more guts and courage than you will ever dream of.
And your last candy ass comment is easy to say from 2000 miles away, I would sure be pleased to have you say that to my face!!!
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08/01/2011 7:24:00 PM
Doc,
1. How do you explain the fact that Chris was shot in the temple while sleeping in his sleeping bag and was found to be on enough Restoril to cause a coma or even death?
2. Rick Swart is a dirtbag who wants to pound your sister like a chicken cutlet when she gets out of prison.
Best to you and your sleazy family.
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Nevada reporter 08/01/2011 4:38:00 AM
It seems to me that Rick Swart must have some sort of hangup for prison chicks. I wonder what happened to Laurie Hancock, his last little jail "friend" from Nevada, who, from what I read in the Nevada paper, is a meth addict and an embezzler. I wonder what Rick's current wife thinks of all this.
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Fastcar 07/28/2011 4:35:00 PM
Annamarie said his REASONS seemed hollow. It's obvious because he didn't disclose his relationship with Lisa Northon were self-serving at best. One poster made a good point...all the energy and effort he put into it was because he doesn't want people to think his bride to be is a murderer. The article itself may not be hollow.
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Doctor2932 07/28/2011 7:47:00 AM
I am Liysa's younger brother, Dr. Tor DeWitt, give me a call at (205)442-9190 and I will send you any document you request regarding this case!
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Cindy 07/28/2011 6:25:00 AM
Lisa's has NOTHING but time! The injustice is that she KILLED her husband while he lay comatose in a sleeping bag. She wasn't fending him off. She plead guilty (because she was) and is serving TIME for it. If she's trying to change that fact by taking the focus off the KILLING and put it on a book author, then she's not taking responsibility for her actions now. Certainly if he abused her, shame on him, but there is absolutely NO law that says it's okay to shoot the abuser unless you are defending yourself. It's hard to conceive the justification here given the comatose husband in a sleeping bag.
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Annmarieby2005 07/28/2011 6:13:00 AM
He didn't Expose anything, he told a story. If Lyisa has so much proof why didn't she use any of it on Lyisa's civil suit against Anne that was thrown out because she was not willing to point and ANY single thing in the book that was faults. Seems like a perfect time to use that proof.
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Truthseeker 07/28/2011 5:53:00 AM
Ms. Rule - Why did you say Liysa didn't graduate from college (and skewer her for saying she did) when it is irrefutable that she graduated from the University of Hawaii in 1985? Was that just sloppy storytelling or a deliberate lie, Ms. Rule? Ignoring the question isn't going to make it go away. It's a simple question. I'd appreciate an answer.
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Annajmpeterson 07/28/2011 4:08:00 AM
Exactly-Well Stated
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Annajmpeterson 07/28/2011 3:52:00 AM
Mr Swart's article is not 'hollow'. The article has EXPOSED how this Ann Rule wrote FALSIFIED MENDACIOUS statements published for PROFIT. That makes me Angry.
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Stacy 07/28/2011 3:37:00 AM
hold your opinions until you hear what the editor of SW has to say, after researching the facts. i beleive we are going to be applauding Swart.
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Annajmpeterson 07/28/2011 3:19:00 AM
You are Welcome. Sociopaths lack emotional empathy. No sociopath would take the time that Liysa has to address step by step the INJUSTICE the book that this Ann Rule had published. Liysa's work is of Deep Empathy.
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Lovestoread 07/28/2011 12:24:00 AM
Why don't you scan in all of your proof and post it here? When she was supposively out of money for her defense why didnt you help her? Why was she out of money for a defense but not for apeals? And what about all the proof that she shot a sleeping man in a sleeping bag?
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Lovestoread 07/28/2011 12:15:00 AM
I would love to see proof of ann rules misdeed. So far I have hear only of writer throwing out his beliefs when he covers a story 10 years later. Just because he says something doesn't make it true. Lisa plead guilty to me that says a lot.
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Lovestoread 07/28/2011 12:08:00 AM
Anyone can say they have documents.
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Annmarieby2005 07/27/2011 11:12:00 PM
When I first read Mr. Swart's article it came across as strange to me. His reasons for looking into the story seemed hollow to me and his obvious anger seemed out of place. Also I have trouble with the everyone is dirty and against me defense. When I later read about his relationship to the subject matter it explained much.
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Doctor2932 07/27/2011 10:48:00 PM
Donna,
Exactly, finally a comment with common sense and intelligence, my faith in people is restored!!!
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Donna M 07/27/2011 9:48:00 PM
After reading all the comments I believe everyone is arguing about whether Mr. Swart and Ann Rule are liars. Does anyone care about the facts that Mr. Swart has documents to prove his claims. All you talk about is he lied about loving Ms. Northon. What difference does it make if he is stating facts?!!!?
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Deepdive54 07/27/2011 8:48:00 PM
If that happened how would we know about Rule's shady practices?
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Billyboy 07/27/2011 8:38:00 PM
You seem immune to the facts substantiated in Swart's article. Did you read it?
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Doctor2932 07/27/2011 4:53:00 PM
LOOKS LIKE SOCIOPATHIC WRITER'S HAVE A KNACK FOR ENSNARING IGNORANT PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THE INITIATIVE TO CHECK THE FACTS OF A SITUATION, BUT INSTEAD FOLLOW LIKE LOST SHEEP. AGAIN, THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFESSIONAL WHO HAS EVER GIVEN LIYSA ANY DIAGNOSIS OTHER THAN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE VICTIM PERIOD!!!
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Jkslater81 07/27/2011 2:53:00 PM
Swarts story should be removed.
You couldn't have a worse conflict of intererest and worse undisclosed to editors
Sociopathic killers can ensnare anyone-
even "journalists"
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Smile13 07/27/2011 1:07:00 PM
Doc,
Here's a couple facts for you:
1. Liysa murdered Chris in his sleeping bag and is in prison for it.
2. Rick didn't disclose to anyone his relationship with Liysa.
I'm not slamming your family or your sister. Rick should have disclosed his relationship up front. How do you think the current Mrs Swart feels about all this?
I have lived in NE Oregon since 1972. I know this is Rick wanting some publicity, nothing more. He's always looking for a story and this time he found one. The way he broke this to the SW may not be criminal, but it is most certainly unethical and immoral.
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Doctor2932 07/27/2011 11:23:00 AM
FASTCAR,
First of all the story isn't about Rick Swart, it was a story full of lies about MY ENTIRE FAMILY,written by Ann Rule, which she claimed she had done all this research on, when in fact she didnt do shit, other than lie when it made the story sound better. And Yeah, Rick Swart has INTEGRITY, or got those who aren't quite bright enough to understand what that is, how about, HE HAD THE THE BALLS TO TELL FACTS AND TAKE ON AND SHED LIGHT ON THE LIES ANN RULE WAS TRYING TO PASS OFF AS THE TRUTH, HE CALLED BULLSHIT ON HER ,and now you call him a DOPE, only because she had made a damn fool out of YOU for believing her UNFACTUAL book, and like I've said to others, if you have any doubts, feel free to call me Dr.Tor DeWitt at (205)442-9190 and I will give you proof of the factual information Rick Swart wrote about, if I don't have it I can send you to the correct court to get copies of any public record to verify Rick's statements, and that is as honest as it gets, you don't have to like Rick, you don't have to like me, but a fact is a fact and not even Ann Rule with l her money and lawyer's can change FACT!!!
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Doctor2932 07/27/2011 10:56:00 AM
SMILE13,
ANN RULE Took it upon herself to write nothing but lies about my entire family, all Rick Swart did was bring the truth to light, he had the INTEGRITY, if that is too big a word for you to understand, thanTHE BALLS to take on a wealthy writer who wrote what ever she wanted and down right lied when the truth would have been easier, SHE LIED ABOUT HUNDRED S OF FACTS, RICK SWART TOLD FACTS , NOTHING BUT FACTS IN HIS WRITING, if you are so desperate to follow blindly without checking facts that Ms. Rule lied about call Me, Dr. Tor DeWitt at (205)442-9190 ,I will provide you with any true information, or send you factual information in this matter , it doesn't get any more truthful and above board than that!!!
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Tin Tan 07/27/2011 6:18:00 AM
The article was well written and fascinating. What Ann Rule has done is inexcusable and in violation of proper journalistic standards. Clearly, she ignored massive evidence of domestic abuse, didn't event attempt to talk to the accused, and was only concerned about going to print and making some bucks. She should be banned from Seattle although, on the other hand, this might be the perfect city for her.
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Smile13 07/27/2011 6:13:00 AM
Rick Swart and "integrity" do not belong in the same sentence. Perhaps you could use his name in a sentence with "unethical" or "immoral"........
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Smile13 07/27/2011 6:12:00 AM
Rick Swart and "integrity" do not belong in the same sentence. Perhaps you could mix his name in with "unethical" or "immoral"......
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Fastcar 07/27/2011 6:08:00 AM
@Random....exactly!!
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Fastcar 07/27/2011 6:04:00 AM
@Doctor2932. What is your definition of integrity? That well over 30 years ago he graduated with honors from OSU? What else is he hiding. I'm absolutely sure there is WAY more many don't know about this DOPE!
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Doctor2932 07/27/2011 5:13:00 AM
CT, don't continue to show your incredible ignorance. First of all this man you call a dope, happened to ne a straight A student and graduated with honors from Oregon State University, secondly, he has more courage, intellect and integrity than you or Ms Rule can imagine. Ms. Rule is the liar, and the person who OWE'S THOSE SHE HAS LIED ABOUT IN ORDER TO SELL BOOKS, AN APOLOGY, as well as her fans, who like you, she has wildly misled and made a complete fool of!!!
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Doctor2932 07/26/2011 10:35:00 PM
Thank you for your knowledgable comments amid so many uninformed, blind followers of a fraudulent writer, I will take the time to answer your question, Liysa and the father of her first born son have a very amicable relationship, and again Ann Rule is the only person who has ever accused Liysa of being a sociopath, all persons who have assessed liysa, and actually have av
dvanced psychology degrees and counseling credentials, unlike Ms. Rule who has none, have said she has NO SOCIOPATHIC PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAITS. By the way, I myself held a Registered Counselor license in Washington State until I left in 2004, so the fact that Ms. Rule makes absurd psychologhical diagnosis, and her "puppet" followers believe any tall tale she tells,is truly amazing!!!! ,
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Darkpatricia 07/26/2011 10:32:00 PM
I'm sure the sociopathy was all on her side
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07/26/2011 5:07:00 PM
You see something criticizing THE premier nonfiction crime writer of all time and you don't do due dilligence in making darn sure there's no one working with an agenda? Come on. You owe Ann Rule and everyone who believes in justice a huge apology. I'm glad, at least, you have now exposed this dope for what he is. And I hope he lives in fear if his "fiancee" ever busts outta jail.
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Annajmpeterson 07/26/2011 6:36:00 AM
And as for Mr Swat 'siding' with the loggers...well I love the environment...however most of us live in dwellings made derived from timber. Until there a new jobs for loggers and and alternative materials for dwellings why would that be an issue...unless the editors of the seattle weeky live in strawbale dwellings...
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Annajmpeterson 07/26/2011 6:21:00 AM
Also the oldest son witnessed the physical attacks on his mother and yes mothers who are experiencing extrme manipulation of DV do go on camping outings in remote areas. I know from experience. There is no reasoning with the manipulator. Pharmas in his system... Labs in cases have been in collusion for the prosecution...did he crawl into his sleeping bag or was he placed there by law enforcement....
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Annajmpeterson 07/26/2011 5:57:00 AM
Dr. Tor de Witt commented Saturday evening regrding the appalling inaccurate statements in the book. There was NO REASON for Ann Rule to degrade the de Witt family. A question I have is: Regarding the first husband, the father of the first son, was this an amicable relationship and divorce ?? Or were their signs of sociopathy within the relationship?