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irv 04/13/2011 5:59:00 AM
'taking child-care issues into consideration' opens up a whole ball of wax as to what compensetory earnings entails.
for 20 years i have been in an industry that typically compensates women better than it does men. perhaps for this reason, the doods i have typically encountered in 'the biz (the hospitality industry)' have habitually been so kind as to enlighten those of us of the fairer sex as to their justified 117% compensation for every 80% of effort they impart, while we bust our respective 'fannies' to justify every dollar.
someone rurally located like yourself and whose referents elucidate the extraction industries (mining, logging, farming) holds an entirly different economic interplay under scrutiny....
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Nemesis 11/15/2008 5:13:00 PM
Salad:
I just re-read your post and am very happy to see that there a few reasonable and fair women out there.
I would not doubt if you were put off my earlier post. I do come off pretty heavy-handed. My point is that women who expect to be treated 'just because' or for whatever reason are by nature selfish, spoiled little brats. Either that, or they believe in double standards and having their cake and eating it too.
My experience and the experience of other men I know has shown me that such women are among the worst possible candidates for relationships. They are selfish, hypocritical and unreasonable, and these defects manifest themselves in nearly every aspect of their lives. Men should positively RUN AWAY from such women.
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Nemesis 11/15/2008 5:27:00 AM
Women who EXPECT men to pay for them are by default entitlement whores. Rationalizations via evolutionary psychology or anything else are shameless crap. If you're dating a woman who expects you to pay simply because she's a woman, dump her and get a real prostitute. It's much cheaper in the long run.
Think about it. If you are dating a woman who EXPECTS you to pay for her what are you really paying for? HER COMPANY. Sound familiar? It is. It's the oldest profession in history. It's called prostitution. And there are many forms.
Any man who thinks he HAS TO pay for a woman's company is a eunuch with low self esteem. The truth is, women are just as interested in sex as men are, even MORE SO. That's why a good looking truck driver with self esteem and confidence who doesn't take crap from entitlement whores can walk into any setting and walk out with a pocket full of womens' phone numbers. Because he's a real man who doesn't need to wave his Amex card around to prove himself. He just IS, and if certain women don't like it, they can go pound sand. After all, there are lots to choose from.
And yes, there are lots to choose from. The world is full of women who are frustrated with their eunuch 'Yes dear' boyfriends and husbands. In reality, the more you treat a woman like a princess, the less respect she'll have for you. The more you treat her like an equal, the more you expect her to behave like a grown up and not like a spoiled little girl, the more she will respect you. And the great thing is, you will wind up respecting HER even more, because she IS a grown up.
ANY woman who expects you to pay for her simply because she is a woman is an entitlement whore. Healthy relationships with these kinds of women are impossible, because they are not women, they are CHILDREN. Got it?
And as for the whole pay gap thing, even if there was a pay gap, so what? Buck up and deal with it. Go get another job. Quite whining and make your life better. If you want someone to step in and make everything better for you, go move to a social democracy.
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Miller 10/27/2008 7:24:00 AM
Nice Story like it!
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Vaquero 10/11/2008 11:33:00 PM
Jonathan asked:
Why is it that career women who claim to be "independent" and "liberated" suddenly become "traditional" when the dinner check comes? Women claim to want "equality," but shirk that equality when it's time to pay for the mating ritual. Can you explain logically why so many women want to enjoy both the gains of feminism and the benefits of Victorian traditionalism?
Women traditionally had it better than men in some ways and worse than men in other ways. Feminism was about women gaining equality to men in those areas where they were worse off (such as school and work.) It was never about giving up existing advantages (in areas like dating.)
To be fair, some women feel that if equality, or fairness, are right in school and at work, then they should be right in dating as well and, accordingly, they don't have a sense of entitlement when it comes to being paid for. In my experience, however, these women are a minority.
So often people fall back on the "whoever asks, pays" rule. In theory that rule is fine. But the reality is that since women hardly ever ask men out, that rule effectively translates to "the man pays." (And the reason women hardly ever ask men out is because that's another advantage they want to preserve. They don't want to be the ones to have to face the risk of rejection.)
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Loretta Galan 10/07/2008 9:21:00 PM
Dear Date Girl,
I love your column. You are so to the point and right on in your advice, just trashy enough to keep me interested. I am married now, but just love reliving the dating life through your column, reminds me of everything I don't miss about being single. Love love, love it! it's my dirty little weekly secret entertainment!! Keep up the good work.
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whomever 10/07/2008 2:56:00 AM
Actually, gems and rings do hurt people. Research the effects of mining and the diamond trade. All kinds of death and destruction right there. We women should stop with the barbaric traditions of rings.
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whomever 10/07/2008 2:53:00 AM
Actually, gems and rings do hurt people. Research the effects of mining and the diamond trade. All kinds of death and destruction right there. We women should stop with the barbaric traditions of rings.
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Salad 10/06/2008 5:27:00 AM
My current boyfriend tells me I'm the first girl he's dated who'll pay for dinner and a movie. I've always done this, taking turns treating each other makes for a more equal and happy relationship. My boyfriend doesn't need to feel like he takes care of me by buying me dinner every time we go out. He can take care of me by being emotionally and sexually available and vice versa. Come on, the fact that I have a job and can pay occasionally doesn't make my boyfriend feel inadequate. I'm not a helpless little kid.
If its petty for men to expect women to pay their share than its petty for women to expect to be treated on every date. You can blame my feminist ideals for this attitude of mine.
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T. K. Harris 10/05/2008 10:07:00 AM
Dategirl --
Would your answer have been any different if the letter had been signed by "Joan" instead of "Jonathan"?
-- T. K. H.
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Sil 10/03/2008 5:30:00 PM
Seems to me there's an easy way to settle that kind of indignation: a man can either be a feminist, that is someone that cares enough about what the woman he goes out with is thinking to ask her her opinion about it ; or he lives comfortably with whatever inequalities between sex exist in his society, therefore he has to go along with both the advantages (better pay in average, less pressure from all areas of society) and the flaws (being expected to pay for dinner).
In the first case, if the woman is outraged to be asked that kind of question, she is not ready to go out with a feminist ; in the second case, if the man expects to get both the comfort of living in a largely chauvinistic society and dating on the cheap, then no woman could be ready to go out with him.
Here, I'd say the man asking is trying to get both the situation and the money... if he isn't wealthy enough to go out with the young well-paid women he craves after, he should reexamine his beliefs and see if he doesn't get better results by becoming a real feminist, not just a whiner.
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Mahriah 10/03/2008 7:05:00 AM
The man still pays for the meal for the same reason that the woman still spends an hour getting ready and a TON of money on cosmetics and clothes. (probably much more than the man spends on her half of dinner!) Classic ideals exist within our culture, despite our verbal contradictions. Many women enjoy the feeling of being treated well and taken care of. Many men enjoy the feeling of being able to take out a beautiful, well-groomed, feminine lady.
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Sondari 10/03/2008 4:59:00 AM
Seems to me it's a matter of "are we in this together?" or not. It's worth guessing the total in advance and laying a twenty (or two, or much much more) on the table if either of you want to show the other that this is what life together could be like. We can be equal contributors if we are going to keep going out. You'd see me reaching for my purse as soon as the check comes, which would be my way of showing that I'm ready to join in and pay my share.
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boulderguy 10/03/2008 2:25:00 AM
Feminist -
Thank you for the usual "need to get laid" dis. I had a bet that some really smart feminist would lay that irrefutable bit of wisdom on me within two comments. I won!
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Legion 10/03/2008 12:58:00 AM
Man, that jejune quarter-wit is just chock-full of generalities. Generalities based on a narrow, non-generalized slice of population, as you pointed out. Just as there may be grains of truth in them, there are a few grain-piles just lying around outside the tunnel of his vision.
So, what happened to "whoever wants the date enough to ask someone out pays"? Or comes clean at first and says, "I can't afford to treat right now, want to go Dutch on some coffee?" (If he can't afford to treat to coffee, he really is at the bottom of the pile.) Real novel, creative idea there!
So he asks someone and pays the first time. (Well, HE doesn't, but less panty-twisted folks do.) Go out a few more times: either come clean and ask to meet Dutch, or pay a few times and see what someone offers to help with. Just notice the pattern of how someone offers to pitch in, together with some basis of their financial state.
How hard is that?
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Kristi Paetznick 10/02/2008 9:57:00 PM
You tell him Judy! There are women out there who feel EXACTLY like you do. I certainly have no problem with splitting, contributing or outright paying for the whole dinner. I also would not need a fancy engagement ring (as long as it doesn't turn my finger green it's cool) and I certainly wouldn't need a fancy wedding (I abhor "bridezillas")...getting married to someone should be just about that. Exchanging vows and making a commitment to another person for life doesn't have to be a long drawn out affair. A simple ceremony (heck, at the courthouse) and a nice dinner with family and friends is all this chick would want.
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JJ 10/02/2008 1:47:00 PM
There is a lot not being stated by the guy who is writing in, for instance is he asking the girls out; or is he being asked out? If she asks him out then it is understandable to expect her to pay at least her share, if not the full meal.
But if he is asking the girl out; and hates paying; why not ask her to an activity that does not require payment a walk around Greenlake, a trip to the Arboretum, the Ballard Locks, etc.
What I think "Jonathan� doesn�t understand is that there is a difference between being chivalrous and being chauvinist. Just like there is a difference being strong minded and being bitchy.
If you are asking someone out you should except to pay; it's good manners. If invited someone over and cooked dinner for them, you wouldn't expect them to pay for half of the cost of groceries and then except to be financially compensated for labor would you? I don't think it's surprising or alarming that many women like to be treated politely.
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Zieglinda 10/02/2008 9:16:00 AM
Kitschnsync,
I have been forced to modify my feminist ideals by experience and by the reality of biology. But only a little. I strongly believe I am equal to any man, in my validity as a human being, in my intelligence and in my right to live my life exactly as I choose. Conceding that there are differences is not negating gender equality. If men were the same as women, I wouldn't be so attracted to them, since I'm not attracted to women at all. Different is not a judgement, and equal does not imply identical.
My opinions in this are based on observation. My ideals are not so dogmatic that I can't see the reality that's right in front of me. Besides, I prefer to spend my time with people that have a generous spirit, and there's something disturbing about someone who is so resentful about paying for a few meals. Is he dating this woman? Why can't he bring this up with her? So, he can't communicate with her, and wants validation for his resentment from others. Not good.
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Zieglinda 10/02/2008 8:51:00 AM
Kitchnsync,
I am old enough that my feminist ideals have been forced to concede a little ground to experience and the reality of biology. But only a little. I can admit that men and women have differences without changing in any way my belief that I am as valuable a human being as any man, with as much validity in my opinions, at least as much intelligence and with exactly the same right to live my life as I choose. Different is not a value judgement. If men were just like women, I wouldn't be so attracted to them, since I am not attracted to women at all.
My comments about men reflect my personal observations. I try not to let my ideology dictate how I think when contradictory evidence is sitting in front of me. Besides, I prefer a relationship with someone that has a generous spirit, and I think it's a bad sign when a man has so much resentment because he is paying for meals. As I mentioned in my previous post, I personally like the host rule, which allows for taking turns.
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Dan 10/02/2008 7:07:00 AM
The answer is simpler than anyone here is making it. Firstly, it is polite to pick up the cheque. Second, the lady needs to see that you are not a small-dicked tight-wad that won't even spring for a dinner. You college boys want to talk about the politics of being cheap before you stick your lady with the bill, please go ahead. It makes guys like me look even better. I have the means and the manners and my eye on the prize. Dinner is always on me.
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kitschnsync 10/02/2008 4:36:00 AM
Zieglinda and Joanna,
You two do see how your answers are sexist, right? Making the "males must have a chase" argument, which is rooted in evolutionary psychology, is akin to a man saying "all women are wired to be gold-diggers." It might have some basis in fact, with plausible evolutionary support, but it it sets back the goal of gender equality.
Which brings us back to the orginal question: Why are people who are nominally feminists anything but in practice?
Sorry for the double post earlier.
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zieglinda 10/02/2008 4:19:00 AM
I believe in the host rule. If you asked her out, you pay. If she asks you out, she pays. I prefer taking turns as host in all relationships, even just friendly ones, but then that's me.
On the other hand, and I've said this before, men don't appreciate what they don't have to put any effort, or money, into. And in my experience, men who don't like paying for dinner tend to be cheap in other areas as well, including emotionally. What's the big deal anyway, spending a bit of money for food? If it's gonna break you, find something less expensive to do.
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kitschnsync 10/02/2008 4:16:00 AM
"Boulderguy clearly needs to get laid."
No actual rebuke to his argument? You are aware that dismissive little aside is precisely the same one that is used by so many male sexists, yes?
You'd probably claim so now, but let's face it... Feminism is not known for its humorists.
"This is the fruit of bitter experience"
Sometimes I wonder how many people that read this column *aren't* damaged WRT the opposite sex. Most people in loving relationships would have no use for this column.
Personally, I'm here for the terrible advice and non-answers.
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kitschnsync 10/02/2008 4:16:00 AM
"Boulderguy clearly needs to get laid."
No actual rebuke to his argument? You are aware that dismissive little aside is precisely the same one that is used by so many male sexists, yes?
You'd probably claim so now, but let's face it... Feminism is not known for its humorists.
"This is the fruit of bitter experience"
Sometimes I wonder how many people that read this column *aren't* damaged WRT the opposite sex. Most people in loving relationships would have no use for this column.
Personally, I'm here for the terrible advice and non-answers.
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joanna bujes 10/02/2008 3:18:00 AM
The basic reason why men should have to pay for things is that if they don't, they hold the woman in contempt. It is basic male psychology to value women as much as women value themselves and not a tad more. Men need to scale high mountains and conquer obstacles and prove themselves. Cash is a very easy way to do that. A wise woman should occasionally spoil a man by taking him out and paying for everything; but the rest of the time, it should be his check and he should be happy to pay it.
This is the fruit of bitter experience since, as a liberated, self-supporting, but infinitely stupid female, I have always paid my share of the bill.
Joanna
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feminist 10/02/2008 12:52:00 AM
Boulderguy clearly needs to get laid.
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artie 10/02/2008 12:16:00 AM
i wish there were more dategirls out there.
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BoulderGuy 10/02/2008 12:14:00 AM
You didn't exactly answer his quetions. You seemed more concerned with defending your belief that there is a gender wage gap (that evidently has affected you personnaly.) I have researched the issue at length and there is nothing I know of (beyond radical feminist writings) that actually attributes the statistical wage gap to discrimination aginst women. Every single objective report (i.e., non-feminist driven) on the issue concludes that the wage gap is the result of personal choices women make regarding employment. This makes sense when you consider things like time out for child raising; taking less risky, more comfortable jobs; wanting to work fewer hours with more flex time; not wanting to work at night or travel, etc. Considering that 96%+ of work related deaths are men I think it's pretty clear that men take on the harder, dirtier, riskier jobs. Yet this "wage gap is the result of discrimination" myth stubbornly persists and is reinforced by posts like yours. IF you are ignorant, please google the topic and look at some non-feminist studies and articles about the issue. If you want yo believe it anyway, in spite of the facts and common sense, then I guess you're tryuly a feminist and probably beyond help.